DaveR Twitter and the Disney Job I’ll Never Get
Posted on February 11th, 2008by Michael Gray in Social Networks
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So I’m cruising through twitter this AM and I get a message from DaveR about a job he thinks he’s found for me. Now my first thought was Dave sent me a link to the Disney Chief Magic Officer job, which is very cool, but more of a ceremonial position more than anything else. However what he actually sent was a more interesting, more frustrating, and to be quite honest … insulting.
The job that Dave sent was for an SEO Manager at Walt Disney . I make no secret of my love for all things Disney, I think it’s cool when people send me interesting Disney links, and I’m even on a one man campaign to get Danny to hold an SMX show in Orlando, so he can finally get to experience what a real Disney park is like, not that tiny beta version in California (inside joke).
Now I’m not really looking for a new job, but it looks interesting so I scan down the page. Looks like I’m fully qualified for the job, until we hit that last line:
Bachelor’s Degree or Equivalent … REALLY …. WTF?
Now I feel I’m a reasonably intelligent person, but the path that my life took led me to graduating near the bottom of my high school class, and taking some college courses, but I never got a degree. To be honest I don’t think most people need a degree. To be even more blunt, one of the major problems with schools is they stifle and punish creativity and original thinking, and reward mindless robotic compliance and “fitting in”, but I digress.
Here’s the bottom line, getting an education or being and educated person has zero correlation to being smart, getting things done, or making things happen. However we’re stuck in some bullshit bingo cycle, of college graduates perpetuating the myth you need a college education to get somewhere.
So Terry Cox, Search Engine Marketing Manager of the Walt Disney Company, perhaps it’s time to rethink your approach to hiring people, and find the people who are the most qualified, and not those who perpetuate the status quo …
ps (wonder if Matt Cutts is recommending me for the job now and pulling strings to get Terry’s email, figuring if I’m a happy camper working at Disney I’ll stop picking on Google so much …)
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February 11th, 2008 at 11:26 am
Even more idiotic is that there is no degree in SEO. Most of the best SEO’s I know with degrees have them in completely unrelated fields, and many, including myself, don’t have degrees at all. But hey, let Disney think that a bachelors in political science makes someone a more qualified SEO. Leaves the affiliate space much more open and easy to blast through.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:29 am
I don’t mean to ruin a perfectly good rant Graywolf; however, it does say “or equivalent.” Your experience in the SEO realm certainly qualifies (not to mention your collection of Disneyana.) Aside from you being over-qualified for this post, there’s nothing here to worry about.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:34 am
>>>Your experience in the SEO realm certainly qualifies
I’ll agree with that, actually. I don’t worry about ever being turned down for a corporate position (and never have been) due to not having a degree. That said, the HR department might bitch about your salary considering your education if you’re hired
February 11th, 2008 at 11:42 am
I think you should try and apply and see what they say, even if you don’t want to take it!
February 11th, 2008 at 11:56 am
That would be a pretty awesome job… It is probably due to Disney standards to have all employees to have a BA Degree. I am pretty sure even their street performers have to have some education. But of course… it’s not needed to do a good job. (I also agree about not having to have a degree)
But this is a fun topic to watch unfold on Twitter….
February 11th, 2008 at 11:56 am
It would also be awesome to have SMX DisneyWorld
February 11th, 2008 at 11:58 am
GW- I understand your frustration, however, it may just be a company policy. I used to work for Macy’s when they were taking over Bamburgers. (Now I’m dating myself!) In the credit dept- if you didn’t have a degree, they were letting you go, even those who’d worked there with spotless records for years. The company just wanted to tell their investors that “such and such percentage of our employees hold a college degree.” It was all about appearances, and of course, money.
That said, if two people are up for the job and they have equal experience and value- one has a degree, and one does not…HR is (mostly likely) going to chose the one with the degree. Why? Because they are ’smarter?’ No. Because they followed through on a 4 year project. They got the job done. They set a goal and accomplished it.
February 11th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
@cathlyn an education should be life long and ongoing process, not a job to be done for 4 years and then checked off your “to do” list
February 11th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
Chin up man, that is just standard HR boilerplate. Focus on bachelors or EQUIVELANT. That is code for “the hiring manager will make the decision”. If you are smarter, more eloquent, and can sell yourself better then the other candidates then you WILL get the job.
One other lesson, don’t publish rants about prospective employers, If HR reads this you can be assured that you will NOT get this job.
–Colin
February 11th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
ha! I know how you feel
I myself and most of SEO my colleagues at Onetomarket, don’t have a degree, and I don’t feel there’s a need for it either.
Seriously if you can choose between the guy who spent the last 6 years building websites and wants to learn SEO, or the guy that studied economy, and doesn’t now what the <head> section of a page is, who would YOU choose?
February 11th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
It amazes me how limited the general perception of a University education is. Degree level education is not designed to teach specific workplace skills, its designed evolve critical insight into a topic, providing the potential to contribute that body of knowledge. Such an education illustrates an ability to think to a certain level, its meant to be nothing more, and nothing less. Experience can equally provide such insight, but often demonstraing ability to do a specific job well is not the same as illustrating more generalisable critical thinking skills.
February 11th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
Funny, I was just telling my uncle this yesterday - I want to either switch to management or dropout and get working. Business is so much more interesting, fun and creative than school! [My uncle promptly told my mom that he was worried for me... Can't blame him, as his dental degree's worked out well forhim...]
February 11th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
I just watched the movie Accepted last night. Its that move about making up a college with the guy from Super Bad.
If we created an seo college. It should have a full course on viral seo linkbait pranks. Because college is about goofing off as well.
February 11th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
I am a college dropout.
Many of the brightest minds in SEO are 21 year old college drop outs
Generally speaking, people with real SEO talent don’t work for big companies. They either a) consult, or b) use their skills on their own sites.
February 11th, 2008 at 3:04 pm
“Generally speaking, people with real SEO talent don’t work for big companies. They either a) consult, or b) use their skills on their own sites.”
Bullshit. You just have to think of people like Marshall Simmonds (once called “the posterchild of SEO success by Danny Sullivan) and Jessica Bowman to know that that is utter bullshit.
February 11th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
I’m sure that’s stock language for a large number of “white collar” job ads…I wouldn’t put any credence in it.
Nobody actually reads all that verbiage anyway.
HR will need lots of magic pixie dust to understand the SEO resumes:.)
February 11th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
GreyWolf, I could not have said it any better myself!
Especially with the bigger companies, they feel like they are getting some boost in a n SEO expert with a degree…quite annoying…True SEO’s are the ones that have figured, tested and proved things by themeselves..not from a textbook.
February 11th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
Don’t knock college.
College makes you smarterer.
I know, because I’m the deciderer.
Signed,
George Bush
February 11th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
Worlf
I am a freshman student of your SEO blog and I have a bachelor degree in Computer Sciences from a respected school …that tells you a lot about the gap between college degrees and real world knowledge experiance.
I guess its’ just a big corp. norm or an HR thing…in IT this degree is nothing but a paper imho
February 11th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
oops sorry to misspell your name…fat finger today
February 11th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
Are you really proposing that *on average* people who didn’t take the opportunity to continue their education are as capable as people who did? If so, how do you explain that *on average*, people who don’t have a bachelors are more likely to not believe in evolution (amongst other things)?
This doesn’t mean that there aren’t standout examples (Bill Gates, anyone?), and there may even be an argument in saying that the *on average*, the top 1% best candidates for the job “didn’t waste their time with college degrees”, but that’s not the issue.
The issue is that the people interviewing are going to receive more applicants than they could possibly consider, and they don’t want to waste their time. Including as many somewhat accurate filters as possible accomplishes that. An education is a valid filter. Someone as qualified as yourself will easily bypass that filter, so it obviously works effectively.
At the end of the day, you’re just being insecure and over sensitive. You shouldn’t be. Instead of letting it get you worked up, ignore it, and maintain your dignity.
February 11th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
Well I guess the jist of this post is agreed upon by most SEO’s
February 11th, 2008 at 9:26 pm
Most of the guys who made it during the dot-com boom are college and university dropouts. Many geniuses too. And very bright people often happen to be homeschooled. I know many people who finished faculty, being just mediocre and not quite bright. But they just knew that all it took to get a degree is to sit enough over books, get everything done by the plan, follow the program - and there you have it.
IMHO, diplomas and degrees are needed for surgeons and similar jobs. While all the arts and humanities, marketing and whatnot depend on the individual.i
February 11th, 2008 at 10:05 pm
I have a Business Degree (Marketing) from SDSU, and a minor in Economics (class of 98 — Go Aztecs).
My degree, alone, does not make me a good practitioner of SEO. Rather, years of daily, hands-on in the trenches SEO (and related work) makes me a good SEO. But, the process of acquiring a college degree has given to me an irreplaceable foundation (skills, knowledge base, and confidence), which allows me to work smarter, and faster in my daily tasks as an SEO. This combination of skills and knowledge has allowed me to more easily oversee other marketing related roles throughout my career (i.e. Affiliate Program Manager, Marketing Manager, etc.).
Now, regarding the SEO position at Disney, perhaps they are looking for an SEO that is not only good at SEO, but also has related classical training that they can build upon the Disney Way, thus creating an more well-rounded employee faster than could be done with an applicant w/o such training?
Note: If I was the hiring manager, I’d add “Or equal/relevant business experience.” so I would not automatically close the door to good SEOs who decided that college wasn’t for them.
February 12th, 2008 at 12:22 am
Something tells me that if Disney won’t take you, you won’t have much problem finding a job. Matter of fact if you wouldn’t mind hopping over the East River every day and visiting us folks in DUMBO (see we have Disney connections!), I bet we could find a spot for you….
February 12th, 2008 at 6:31 am
I’m a high school dropout. My last four internet marketing jobs required a degree (preferably in marketing or an MBA) but I got the jobs anyway. No one even asked about my education. They only seemed to care about what sort of results I’ve produced for others and what those people have to say about my work.
February 12th, 2008 at 6:41 am
I get it for some jobs, but for SEO that’s just stupid. *IF* a college were to come out with an SEO degree, by the time you were done with the 4 years of education, everything you’d learned would be totally outdated.
February 12th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
“getting an education or being and educated person”
I didn’t get an education either, but I think you meant..
“getting an education or being an educated person”
Hehe I had to point it out =P
February 12th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
Yeah, I never graduated from College (art school no less)–I ended up taking a job a semester before completion. I have no regrets. Every job I have applied for/been offered has “required” at least a bachelors, most a masters.
Whatever.
It’s the experience that counts. I’ve even said I dropped out of school to take a job in interviews, and the interviewers think it’s great.
What pisses me off are all these people I meet coming out of school going “I have a Business degree, I know everything. Now where’s my six figure job?” and they act like they have all the answers…then, they get into “real” situations that are over their head and flounder…because of course their one quarter project management class didn’t teach THAT.
February 13th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
I think Jack Walsh said that after two weeks on the job the canidate’s eduction is irrelavant. What they did on the job is most of important.
That said I had a great time at college. I worked my way through washing dishes at a ski resort near campus (I got to ski for free). I made a ton of lifelong friends in college. I am not sure how much I learned there but I gained a lot of life skills during those 4 years.
I definately want my kids to graduate college in something.
February 19th, 2008 at 12:43 am
Well education teaches you to follow. Corporations want followers, they also need leaders. Many successful entrepreneurs don’t have higher education. Why? In part because they start working and are successful and never look back, therefore needing no education to bolster their success. Other people not as immediately successful/intelligent get fired or switch jobs and fall back on degrees to showcase the commonality of their brilliance. So is it a surprise that many software entrepreneurs have no education, not really. But do those software entrepreneurs ever take a course in French Literature against their will because its a breadth requirement and end up taking his/her life down a path that was unexpected? yes.
Calculate the ROI on your next educational move before you jump in
its easy to study stuff your passionate about. When your forced to learn something its painful but can lead to exposure to new ideas. Since everyone is not naturally intellectually curious formal education pushes this on people.
Is it worth 120,000 dollars? probably not. Me, I m a polyglot summa cum laude undergrad turned MBA who learned most of what I know for my job from 25$ /month lynda.com and the blogosphere. Thankyou blogosphere.
February 21st, 2008 at 7:21 am
Frankly, I read quite a lot of bloggers’ feeds and I think yours is one of the best, with or without a degree.
Personally I have a 2nd CS degree from a well known university, but my real knowledge/thinking abilities was learned/evolved “from the street”.
University is great if you intend to be a scientist - explore the practices that will get to the industry in 20 years.
If you’re into today’s/tomorrow’s practice, there is *more the enough* knowledge spread all over the web.
Mike.