How Seth Godin Keeps Pissing me the F*%$ OFF
April 8th, 2008 by Michael Gray in Random ThoughtsIf you're new here, you may want to subscribe to my RSS feed. Read my top posts or learn more about Michael Gray. Want more frequent updates follow me on Twitter. Thanks for visiting!
Dear Seth Godin,
I read your blog and I buy your books I like your stuff so much I gave them as Christmas presents to my clients, but when you write this kind of stuff it pisses me off
A quick glimpse at just about any profession shows you that the vast majority of people who succeed professionally also went to college
Really please stop it now, there are very few professions that require a college level education. Doctors, lawyers, accountants and so yep I’m with you, but for everybody else drive, and desire are much more important … really
Sphere It
April 8th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
It’s just a generalization…
Plus, people can build upon or discover their drive and desire in college…
Just sayin.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
Ouch, the profanity!
My entire point is that most jobs DON’T require college. If you hadn’t stopped reading, you would have seen that. That college represents NOT an essential training ground, but is instead a signal that you’re the kind of person who does more than is required, that you are pushing yourself for something more.
In fact, I’m told that there’s evidence that shows that Harvard drop outs do just as well in life as Harvard grads. The act of getting in and then of dropping out is another one of those symptoms of success, I guess.
Sheesh.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
I went to a competitive school where the people are there because they had the drive to get the tools a college education gives them. I think this is true with a lot of college grads, so I’d have to agree with Seth’s statement.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
He’s talking about success, and no not just a few stragglers, here and there, but overall. I would gather to assume that he’s right….and has gotten you to talk about him, therefore creating interest in him and his books yet again.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
True… Marketing Degree? To me, it sounds about as useful as a degree in art appreciation. However… College is great for socializing and networking. I do see a real benefit and advantage with that one.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
I think what is commonly mistaken is the difference between success and salary. It’s been shown statistically in the US that the benefits of getting a college degree and even a master’s degree can help increase your salary by a large amount, but that does /not/ imply success.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
You missed his point and quoted him out of context, and that pisses me off. :p
April 8th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
seth godin »
Reread three times and I dont see anything that says that in fact I see the opposite in this line :
“This could be because college teaches you a lot.
Or it could be because the kind of person that puts the effort into getting into and completing college is also the kind of person who succeeds at other things.”
Sorry about the profanity but its a sore spot and it irks me to no end when people say those kind of things. I’m a passionate kinda guy, not afraid to stand up and speak his mind, even if I don’t have a college degree.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:32 pm
Peter Davis »
Go blog about just make sure you link to me
April 8th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
Michael,
I agree with you 100% that getting a college degree as a de-facto measuring stick, or prerequisite for a job, is becoming less and less important as the internet opens up new ways of making money and offers a learning experience of its own. You can surely be wildly successful without a degree, as you yourself have proven!
But speaking about my own personal experience, I do think that I “learned how to learn” in college, learned incredibly valuable time management skills, and gained the opportunity to interact with other bright, driven, motivated students and professors. All three of those have prepared me immensely well for a life in the real world, no matter what I decide to do. So there’s still something to be said for putting in a solid four (or more) years in higher education, IMHO, even if it isn’t “required” for success.
April 8th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
Michael,
I haven’t read the blog post but bast solely on the quote you provided
“A quick glimpse at just about any profession shows you that the vast majority of people who succeed professionally also went to college”
That is 100% true. Statistically, if you take any professional career in the upper bracket of income, the majority of the jobs, by far, will be occupied by people who attended college (whether they graduated or not).
Does that mean that people who go to college are smarter? No. But the quote you are disputing cannot be disputed.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:43 pm
Jeremy Luebke »
remind me to tell you about the statistician who drowned while wading across a river with an average depth of 4 feet
I bet the average construction worker without a college degree is making more than the over educated college graduate stuck in Mcdonalds working the fry station.
I bet the average stripper is making more than 90% of the college grads trapped at desk jobs in cubicle nation.
I bet britney spears makes more than you me and seth combined
April 9th, 2008 at 4:46 am
I agree with Seth, he’s right. College gives you more than just education (if you can make it).
I was just wondering, do you have any degree Michael?
April 9th, 2008 at 9:55 am
Hah, Britney Spears, if there was ever an example I was going to show my kid as why he needs to go to college…..
Son, you don’t want to be like her do you? A puppet run by other people? You would rather be the puppet master pulling the strings wouldn’t you?
But I get what your saying. Some people look down on those without degrees which is just stupid. I would take a hard working HS grad who had to work from nothing to something than someone who just skates by with their degree.
April 9th, 2008 at 10:40 am
faster »
no I don’t, and I can honestly say starting out I more than once heard the expression “sorry this position is only open to someone with a college degree”. I was then lucky enough to work for a person who promoted people with fire in their belly and didn’t care about the piece of paper (he was lawyer himself). Until he died and his kids took over, his company was packed with hard working, smart and dedicated employees. 7 years after he died, the company which had been in business for 90, years lost it’s edge and filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy.
Smart, creative, hard working, driven, and dedicated employees are the ones you want, it doesn’t matter if they sat 4, 6, or 8 years of college or not.
April 9th, 2008 at 11:21 am
I have a degree, but I hadn’t started using it until lately (11 years out of college). I believe now-a-days it really is just a piece of paper to prove you paid for it and to teach you to be a good corporate worker bee. And WOW it’s getting outragously expensive too! At one point I didn’t feel like finishing college, but knew that it would make getting a job easier (ie…sorry this position is only open to someone with a college degree) so I stayed in it and slugged through the last two years. I didn’t take a job following my degree, because the guys who do Industrial Design don’t get paid squat unless you are Phillip Stark or Jonathan Ive (designed the iPod).
My best childhood friend who didn’t go to college now makes several million a year running his own business - his secret? He wasn’t afraid to fail and when he did he’d quickly try something else. I believe that is the fundamental problem with school and college these days, the whole concept is based on “not failing.” That doesn’t give you much to work with in the real world (if you don’t want to become a corporate worker bee).
Don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t want my heart surgeon to fail on me, but that is a whole different situation. This ties back into what Michael is saying (and what Seth points out in most of his writing) people who are passionate make the best person to hire or bet on becoming successful. It took me several years to learn that I shouldn’t chase a job for the good money…it’s a trap, do something that get’s you fired up! And once you become tired of that, do something else that gets you fired up, there is now universal law that says you need to do the same thing all of your life. It’s all about the journey, right?
April 9th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
This one is simple.
Getting into college and graduating from college show that you are willing and able to put up with and deal with BS.
Surprise, surprise, but that same skill set is necessary in the business world.
April 9th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
I agree with you..
In the computer field particularly, many of us didn’t bother with college - until very recently college had nothing to offer to an aspirant to computer support and programming.
And I disagree that “College gives you more than just education (if you can make it).” Education is available everywhere - and not all of us need it spoon fed to us. Truly successful people educate themselves throughout their lives, constantly learning.
April 9th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
JB »
Or you just decide to not deal with the BS and be your own boss
April 9th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
“Getting into college and graduating from college show that you are willing and able to put up with and deal with BS. Surprise, surprise, but that same skill set is necessary in the business world.”
No, it actually isn’t. I don’t put up with BS and never have. If you do, I feel sorry for you.
April 9th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
College is there to hook up with chicks and get drunk! I don’t remember learning anything else in my 10 years at Pitt and Penn State
April 9th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Dropping-out was an easy decision for me. There was no business case to justify the expense of graduating. I wish I had never enrolled in the first place. I still feel like an idiot for falling for the hype to begin with. (If I could only get my wasted time and my $10K back.)
April 9th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Hey Michael,
I’m so glad to hear you say that about a college education. I’m been telling my family the same thing for years. And actually, it’s the drive & desire in a person that can enable them to potentially make more money and be more successful than the college educated.
-Shimon
April 9th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
One other thing about Seth:
I don’t get the hype. I’ve never read his book and honestly the stuff he writes on his blog doesn’t make me want to. I’m not saying it’s junk, but there’s nothing special: there are plenty of bloggers who regularly put out much better posts than he does.
But those people might not have a college degree, so I probably shouldn’t be reading them?
April 9th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
Tony Lawrence, I find that hard to believe. Everyone has to deal with various elements of BS in life. Whether it’s business, dating, politics, etc.
Michael, I generally agree with you that you deal with less BS as your own boss. Still, if you deal with clients, you have to at least sort through BS.
College is great for exposing people to BS; college professors generate massive amounts of the stuff.
April 9th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
“Everyone has to deal with various elements of BS in life”
Let me tell you a story. Sometimes I hire other consultants for little things.. there’s one guy I’ve used a lot and he and I had coffee the other morning. He said “How is it that all your clients are so darn NICE? They are all such sweethearts!”
I explained it very simply: “Because I won’t work for the ones who aren’t.”
It’s really that simple. You are probably right that politicians have to put up with BS, but I’m not a politician..
April 10th, 2008 at 7:02 am
Michael ยป
My point was: How can you know college education wouldn’t give you anything (and Seth’s wrong) if you have no college education?
I can only agree with what you’re saying about hard working and smart people without a degree (sometimes even smarter that those that have some kind of degree). But I can also only agree with the fact that there is some (indirect and slightly strange) meaning of getting a college degree. College won’t give you just the knowledge (you can still get anywhere else) it is a test of one’s character.
Somebody who’ve been to the college is used to facing (sometimes even pointless and useless) assignments, hours of study, tests and examinations. Giving up on college is choosing a simple way before the one that will form your character. And you might not be able to have a life made of simple days only.
April 10th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
faster »
umm with all do respect BULLSHIT!!!
going to college has nothing to to with building character, you want to talk about building character how about starting off in the mail room and working your way up the board room and corner office, by working hard and doing a good job.
Being conditioned to sit through and accept nonsense tasks teaches you it’s ok to perpetuate nonsense. It’s that kind of behavior that makes people think there is value in spewing out web 2.0 crap like strategic synergies with quantitative value added product cycle life chains that target isolated and untapped micro niches in developing and emerging markets with social communities built around micro payment cycles. The fact is nobody even the speaker understands what they are talking about when they hear that, it all just nonsense, but everybody has been conditioned to accept it, or sit through it, when deep down inside they know the emporer has no clothes, but they are afraid to stand up and call someone out for it.
April 10th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
It’s this simple:
Some of us need to be taught, and some of us need to learn on our own.
I hated every minute of school - couldn’t wait to reach the age of 16 when I could legally quit. I was bored, bored, bored - and I was fortunate enough to be in a “gifted and talented” program!
I learned from reading, from experimenting, from asking questions, and that’s still the way I learn today. College had nothing to offer me. But not everyone is the same: some people DO get great benefits from being led to knowledge.
April 10th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Tony Lawrence »
I agree you can learn a lot of really great things in school, but to look down on people who didnt go, or treat them as inferior second class citizens, or disqualify them from positions they are qualified to do, just gets me going …
April 10th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Well, sometimes the disqualification is just a “CYA” reflex. If you have two good candidates, one with a degree and one without, you won’t catch flak if the guy with the degree turns out to be incompetent.. but you sure as heck would for the other guy.
But don’t get worked up about Seth. As I said before, he doesn’t walk on water for me. He’s nothing special.. in fact, his success is probably because his stuff has great appeal for the masses.. and we all know the masses have no taste, right?
April 10th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Tony Lawrence »
of course probably worth noting a heck of a lot more memorable things get built by taking risks and chances than with a CYA attitude.
April 10th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
“noting a heck of a lot more memorable things get built by taking risks and chances than with a CYA attitude. ;-)”
True. But most of the folks who do that kind of thing will never be employees anyway.
April 11th, 2008 at 8:31 am
If you don’t have a degree the most likely way to get ahead is to be self employed. If you’re smart, hard working, and an entrepreneur, you have a pretty good shot at the brass ring. If you’re smart, hard working and have a college degree you can probably get a good job with your own cubicle.
My father had 11 siblings and four children. Out of that group only 3 or 4 got a college degree, but 5 or 6 became millionaires (some of them did it back when that was a lot of money). No overlap between the two. Nonetheless, I wouldn’t point that out to my kids.
April 12th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
I agree with Michael. Why?
Management skills - I think that the best place to learn management is to actually go to work. To experience the things college is just trying to show you. People that haven’t went to school don’t just lie on the couch and doing nothing. They are learning and gathering experience.
I don’t know much about US or UK universities but at my place there is no school that can teach me SEO, PPC or any other SEM related domain. I can’t imagine learning something for 4 or more years and going to my first job and realizing that all I have learned is no longer valid. The industry is changing so rapidly that way of doing things a year ago I now outdated.
The thing that I think some people are missing is that when you’re not at collage studying your not doing nothing.
I think I can make some observations form my own experience. I do not have any degree. I’m 23 years old and I have my own family by now and living for my own - what I can’t say about my friends in universities. I’ve managed to learn and to work hard and gain trust of my bosses. People that are fresh from school are being trained by people such as myself. Heck! I even have to check their texts to fix spelling and grammar.
So to sum up. I believe that people that are successful are passionate about what they do and have the courage to do it. Statistics are for average Joe and I believe that average Joe and success are not on the same page. University is probably a good experience for everybody whom had the privilege to go there. But it’s not for all of us. I recommend watching this TED video about how we are educated out of creativity http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/66 it’s really something.
I hate to see people trying to judge other people with the same rules and statistics. If we were to be judged this way we would be probably robots not creative humans
I would also recommend reading this post about what can happen to intelligent people after college because they don’t have the experience to choose their work accordingly to what they want to do http://fakesteve.blogspot.com/2008/04/google-putting-up-fence-and-gate-to.html.
April 14th, 2008 at 11:16 am
apart from the fact that this policy could well be direct and indirect discrimination on the grounds or age sex race and disability.
Seth baby Marketing is not a profession its not even a fracking associate profession eg technician.
April 17th, 2008 at 1:02 am
I went to college and I succeeded doing the samething as you guys. Obviously I don’t use my degree. I used my degree for two months. I got people coffee wrote a couple papers and found something else. I joined the ranks of the uneducated and might I add doing pretty well at it. Something I learned being a poor kid in college - have fun. If money is your measure of fun then do what it takes to get it. I myself enjoy reading about people who write about college. If I could get paid to just read blogs all day I would. But since money is a measure of success I am out in the ranks fighting like everyone else. Going to college or not going to college is not worth loosing sleep or getting pissed off about. If it brings traffic to your site and traffic brings you money keep writing about it. I will come back.
April 20th, 2008 at 3:07 am
I’m a proud college dropout…
Everyone is taught (sold) that college is this life-changing experience that will prepare you to succeed.
College exists to make you a good EMPLOYEE. In other words, if you want to work for someone else then college is a good place to start.
All my friends and family acted like I had a terminal disease when I dropped out of school. Fortunately, I make more than all of them now so there really isn’t a damn thing they can say. (and I work less too)
College is full of social opportunities though, and is a great place to meet others…it’s also a great way to get buried in debt before you’ve even had a chance to get started in life and then spend 10-40 years paying off the loans while working as a cubicle drone. My “college educated” friends are all miserable. It’s not 1950 anymore folks…